Abby Winters owner Garion Hall issues statement

jette

Truly sorry, ‘though not surprised, to read your comments.

I fully support freedom of expression, including the right to offend, but it certainly hasn’t been my intention to offend either you, or any of the other models, so if I’ve done so unintentionally then please accept my apologies. Any comments I make on the issues involved are directed squarely at the practices within the industry, and most certainly not at the models who share their beauty and love of life.

You’re a lovely lady jette, and I think the penultimate sentence in your post is about the most succinct articulation of the case for pornography and erotica that I’ve ever read.

Stay happy.

@Luke.
The cost of removing sets is often prohibitivley high. The site, in this case AW, requires not just the return of the modeling fee, but also the cost of production, post production, web hosting, advertsing, affiliates, overheads and loss of profit.
This increases even further if the model has participated in scenes with other actors/models, whose contribution to that set will also have to be removed, by default.

@Meredith. I think your posts on this thread are intelligent and insightful. Your contribution to this debate is truly valuable and i thank you for that.

I’ve just read through all of your posts.

The one thing that stands out is that adult females who once consented to what was expected of them now claim to be victims.

This is a feminist tactic of old : always blame others for the social or sexual discomfort you now experience and deny any personal responsibility for the decisions you’ve made in the past.

Suggestion is that these women stop trying to be victims and reflect on how their own behaviour has contributed to the position they are now in.

Arnold

M, the object of the exercise is not to “go after smut”, but to sell newspapers, in just the same way that abbywinters wants to sell subscriptions. The cynicism arises in the way they each pursue that objective.

An incisive post Meredith and you’re absolutely right – it is indeed a serious isse irrespective of the money being made etc.

Arnold, the points you raise are of course valid, insofar as adults are responsible for their own behaviour, and should be prepared to discharge the contracts they enter into.

However, I note that in your last sentence that you raise the equally valid notion of contributory behaviour. Presumably, therefore, you would accept that others too would have to accept their contribution to any negative outcomes.?

Indeed, to deny that, would be like trying to blame the misfortunes of those who took out mortgages that they were subsequently unable to service, and the global banking crisis that followed, solely on those who didn’t fully grasp the risk they were taking on. As we’re all aware, the banking crisis was caused primarily by the greed and stupidity of the bankers, and the ignorance and incompetence of politicians in failing to ensure proper regulation, and one doesn’t have to look too far in order to see the parallels with the adult entertainment industry.

So many family’s here, whether they know it yet or ever will, have been effected by this company and the people under it. What is a parent or guardian to do? Say to a child: ‘Hey child, a company we wont be aware of may come along and under the guise of an artistic, alternative and tasteful nude photography establishment promoting natural female values, and offer you money to participate. They may present it all this way so you feel you can trust that. They may lie to you about where they intend for this to end up for maximum profit and promotion. They may offer you more cash and happily/supportively convince you to do something you thought you never would and wish you could take back almost immediately (they may be very well trained at this). They may even have something for you to sign that they’ll brush over quickly in a friendly, innocent fashion. You may, at the adult age of 18, lack the experience, wisdom and general knowledge to make a free and informed decision that is best for you. They may be so good at all this that once you step into their space it’s too late. You may even buy all this bullshit forever, or for many years until you realise you were not treated in an honest way, and that your naked body is tattooed all over the world wide web and so extremely far more accessible than you were led to believe. You may forfeit your rights to so many things you never dreamed in your wildest nightmares so a man could make as much money as possible from exploiting yours, and so many other, young and innocent females…. You may then be lumped into a category of someone ‘who answered these ads later regretted their decision’. You may freely choose to work in the adult industry!.. or you may grow up in Melbourne .. and have it come to you.’

There are many simple regulations to prevent this. This has clearly been unregulated for some time.

Those who are said to simply ‘regret’…
Despite the immoral conduct of this company in particular, Does no-one care enough to agree that these people, (and they are many) as fellow human beings have suffered? and this will continue to, As well as those connected to them.? And it maybe not unreasonable to expect society and our community to help? Or least understand?

Here, an adult of 18 years of age is legally allowed to gamble. This does not change the fact that, to a lot of people gambling is dangerous and has proven to effect lives. To take away someone’s right to choose is not the answer, but our government saw it appropriate to implement warning signs in gambling venues.
But that seems to be an outrageous notion based on what I’ve seen here. Those who seem to enjoy flexing their argument muscles, those with something to lose (money), those who are proud and feel they were treated well, those who’ve had their opinions twisted (brainwashed) by the product, those who don’t agree with the herald sun’s actions..

People with heart, who care to understand this situation properly are all too scarce to have a clear truth shown: That a very large percentage of this city was harmed, intentionally mislead then exploited, on a massive scale. So many lives will never be the same.

Firstly, I certainly, and in no way believe ‘no company doing the ‘type’ of thing they do should exist at all’. In terms of the product. Pornography has always and always will be apart of the world as well as enjoyed. Free, informed and willing models should be appreciated and respected. Also, honestly, if I was to suggest a website (or rather idea) to be a ‘free and informed’ pornographic model on, one that preaches the values of this one would be close to, if not at, the top of the list. It is a great concept and it’s success is, in a way, testament to that. It definitely takes a lot to understand that Mr H knew this, and works (has worked) very hard to maintain the ideals of his alter-ego, in the many eyes of others. I personally don’t mind greatly that A.Winters never existed. If I was a member, I may feel different but I can’t comment on that aspect too much, as I have a different perspective. I have also stated that I don’t agree with the laws prohibiting porn for profit. If I was to speculate I’d say they may have been put in place to deter the behavior discussed. But I can’t say for sure.

If in charge, what I would do differently?
Contain my greed.. I’d firstly not have stepped outside the adult industry to recruit 18 year olds so heavily, from every single walk of life here. I’d not have the site setup so removing the content is so ‘encouraged’. I’d not have my staff be so adamant about the site being viewable, exclusively, by paying members only. I’d find a way to see that all models were sure they were aware of what they were getting involved in. I’d certainly not allow any ‘pressure’ on a shoot, even if it’s made with the biggest smile and the best possible words, with a bunch of cash at hand. I’d have models paid a lot more. (if not only to counter the honesty, as I realise there would be a lot more people not willing to model being aware of everything). I’d not masquerade as ‘nude photography’. I’d not target the naive and cater to their naivety. I’d have more achievable removal options, if not only to appear to have more of a heart. I’d somehow inform models that producing pornographic material for profit is, in a way, illegal here (but this would be bad for business, of course). I’d not offer such prizes to encourage forum posts on the site (that doesn’t look good on paper, but it’s good for business). I wouldn’t be Mr G. I’d be far more honest so my hard work and idea could be celebrated and enjoyed the way it should have been, rather than just a vessel to make as much money as possible for an intelligent and morally devastating man.

Iamcuriousblue, the original topic was the police raid on abbywinters and the Herald Sun’s involvement. The paragraph you quote refers to the industry more widely, although as such, obviously includes abbywinters.

Before Britain started using Australia as a penal colony, it used to ship convicts to America. All too often the convicts had been found guilty of relatively trivial offences, but as British law at the time was concerned principally with the protection of property, and those with most of the property were principally the ones who could influence or make the laws, it’s not surprising that much of the legislation at the time was concerned with what benefited them.

It’s a familiar pattern, and countless examples could be provided; those with control invariably want to arrange things to suit their own interests, and when their interests are threatened by valid competing interests, they’re quick to come up with the usual panoply of tactics to guard their own interests, which then leads to the situation where a practice can be perfectly legal, and yet manifestly biased, prejudiced, imbalanced and unethical, until such time as the practice is either abandoned, or the law is changed. The cry of nanny-state interference is often heard when an entrenched interest is challenged.

Now, unless you take the view that everything within the porn industry is hunky-dory, fair, ethical, and could not conceivably be improved upon, then I would have to assume that you acknowledge that there are aspects of the porn industry which are in need of reform.?

In my view, the problems with the porn industry flow from the imbalance of power between the participants and the makers, which in itself flows from the currently incomplete, inconsistent legislation regarding copyright, and the failure to recognise legally the models’ authorship of the content which the maker records. As I understand it, as the law currently stands, there is no distinction between a maker hiring an inanimate prop to use in a photoset or video, and hiring a model to bring a whole range of thought, emotion, intellect etc to the same photoset or video. Once that distinction is properly made, and recognised legally via copyright, then many of the negative aspects of porn production would evaporate.

The first response to this topic, by r, identifies one of the things that would flow from such a change, however it also has to be said that at least one maker, Richard Lawrence of Feck, is already moving voluntarily to a more enlightened approach with his Feckshare programme. Other, less progressive thinkers, will no doubt continue with their more parochial self-interest until legislation requires them to change.

Iamcuriousblue, glad to read that you would like to see some form of residual payments for the participants, and I agree on the difficulties of unionisation, due to the transient involvement of many of the participants.

I have no problem with the notion of people being free to enter into any contractual arrangement they wish, provided it doesn’t break any law. Hopefully, the decision to enter into a contract would be an informed one, and obviously it’s unhealthy if the other party to the contract is the informant.

I’m not a lawyer so may well misunderstand the current legal position of some of what’s involved, as well as some of what you’re meaning. I view it from the perspective of a layman, and in the context of Edmund Burke’s observation that “It’s not what a lawyer tells me I may do, but what reason, humanity and justice tell me I ought to do.”, in the same vein as the example of deportees to penal colonies. Who knows how iniquitous some aspects of copyright and associated law may be viewed two hundred years from now.

Broadly speaking, my part understanding/ part view is that the models could justifiably be regarded as giving a performance, although not necessarily as defined by the Australian Copyright Act. http://www.artslaw.com.au/legalinformation/PerformersRights.asp

As such, they would have Performers’ Rights, such as the right to authorize the recording of the performance, and those doing the recording acquire the right to make copies. Beyond that, in the absence of any contractual agreement, the model is then excluded from the benefits of exploiting the financial possibilities in making of copies of the performance, and that imbalance is still currently the case across the wider spectrum of performance. http://www.musiclawupdates.com/articles/ARTICLE%2005PerformersRights.htm (Incidentally, how do you make links clickable on here.?)

Perhaps, therefore, what’s required is to find a sympathetic media lawyer with an interest in porn, and there must be quite of few of those about, to draw up a contract that stipulates the models’ right to receive residual payments, especially when her image is used off-site. Display it widely on blogs like your own and elsewhere, and get willing ex models, and others in Melbourne, to attach it to the model adverts that abbywinters uses, so that if they go for an interview they can take a copy with them.

The legend says that Henry Ford kept the union out of the Ford Motor Company by merely keeping one-step ahead of the unions in the way he rewarded his employees. His people received better benefits and a larger wage than any other autoworkers. In addition, since they didn’t have to pay union dues, that better pay was doubled.

If I tried to return to the labor practices Henry Ford practiced when he was such a shining example of progressive labor policies, even the most cold-hearted and ruthless anti-union employers of today would accuse me of being criminal.

A lot of the above comments depends on the point of view of the writer. In the adult industry, Mr. Hall appears to be a true progressive. In comparison to other – more acceptable – industries, he may be a throwback. In order for that to change, the adult industry needs to gain respectability – first.

When my father was a young man, acting was considered the occupation of bums and ner-do-wells and actors were treated worse than common laborers are today. Now there is a union that protects them from the studio heads. In my younger days, musicians were working hard to gain ownership of their music, recorded as well as written. Today, if I want to sing Happy Birthday as a part of commercial project, I have to pay royalties. Will the same happen for models? Even if it does, will it happen for models in the adult portions of that industry? Only time will tell.

On the issue of royalties, or residuals, let me point out this. The stars get royalties. They worked hard for them and now it is their right. However, the extras don’t. The extras include the studio musicians in the recording industry, the bit, and many character actors in both movies and television, and so on and so on. In fact, a former friend of mine who created something for Microsoft and even had his name applied to the patent, died penniless because it became the intellectual property of Microsoft just because that company wrote his paycheck when he created it. Bill Gates is the star of Microsoft, not my dead friend Jeffer.

The only way things will ever be equitable across the board is if greed can be removed as a motive. But, without greed, would there be industry?

Ah the strangeness of Garion Hall.

Abigail “Abby” Winters is just a pseudonym. Pure and simple.

Doubt me? “Garion” is actually a name he grabbed from a David Eddings novel.

His real name starts with “A”.

This is what you get when you take a once cool site and turn it into a faceless, spamy juggernaut that markets the same content under many different names…. oldest trick in the simpleton training manual.

You can expect the Garion Hall stooges to be all over this post with their butt-kissing sycophantic dribble. 10 million dollars buys a lot of positive opinions.

The bare thruth is as follows.

AW, like all pornographes is an goldigging internet pimp that turns young women into whores for pocket money so that men all over can masturbate masturbate on-line. for e few dollars.

And these girls will be for sale och exposeed free on the internet, and for ever.

They are not made into models, as they think. They are scammed and turned into whores, who have sex for money, for all athe world to see, FOREVER.

I would say that AW and all pornographers are ruthless, scammers who make millions of dollars, exploiting young girls to supply maturbationg material to a growing number oif porn additct.

Pretty Nasty !!

Mike wrote: “They are not made into models, as they think. They are scammed and turned into whores”

What an incredible misogynist view of women you have.

Woman (and less, men) have been modelling nude for millennia. Thankfully it is only a minority who judge then all negatively.

Every company is free to market their product or service however the wish (within the boundaries of the law, obvoiusly) but you have to admit the often repeated “our girls do it to express themselves and gain confidence” angle is hard to swallow. So the need or want for money did not motivate their decision to pose, and they would have done it regardless of being paid?

I admire Larry Flynt because he has never pretended to be anything he’s not. He’s about tits and ass, peddler of smut, whatever you want to call it. As this was in a much more conservative era he copped hell for his business dealings and copped it on the chin, unrelenting.

Not the Abby Winters site. They have decided their girls are natural, happy, healthy, clean living and intrinsically motivated (correspondingly, models for the rival sites must all be unhappy cokeheads). Their models come complete with (assumed) identities and (invented) personalities, eager to share their lives and thoughts. And, apparently, it’s all the models doing. What the site claims to do is simply, innocently provide a self-help service for these girls to feel good about themselves. Thank heavens then for Abby Winters, beacon in the night and social worker to women in need of self expression.

While it’s clear there is a strong divide on whether or not Abby Winters is an ethical company, one thing is for sure: whatever image of ‘female expression’ is being touted, the vast majority of the site’s subscribers are there for masturbatory purposes.

This is in no way a judgement of either models or members, but to say that a close up of a spread vulva and anus is celebrating the female body is fairly rich. While some may see such images as things of beauty (and a woman’s body is nothing to be ashamed of), it’s a safe bet that most of the male viewers will be whacking off to them.

If we can all agree it’s pornography and not such grand feminist statement, this debate might start becoming a little more rational.

Exploitation of young women? You people are morons. How is Abby Winters any different from EVERY SINGLE porn site on the planet? And royalties? Are you on crack? No porn star recieves royalties unless they produced the film through their company? You people are delusional. Welcome to the porn industry. It’s not illegal at all. Immoral? Well, that’s a matter of opinion. But illegal? Not at all.

I must apologise. It was not my
intention to speak for a Meredith
on the site. I did not wish to
be identified easily, so I did not
use site name.
Credibility lost? perhaps.
I was just giving my opinion.