Somebody Think Of The Children

yeah well until they pay royalties to their models i wont be impressed

By r on Jun 17, 2009

A single tabloid journo kicks up a stink and the cops just go out and raids G Media. You have to wonder how they were able to get the warrant in the first place. End result; no charges, no hardware taken but a damaged reputation which was through no fault of G Media.

By Jarrod on Jun 17, 2009

I have modelled for Abby Winters regularly for the past few months, and I was upset to hear the news of the raid.. I have NEVER walked away from any of my shoots feeling that I was pressured, or maniuplated.. The different posing levels are explained thoroughly, and with no intention of pressuring us into going further than we are comfortable with… The conditions are exemplory, the pay is amazing, everything is done to make us models feel safe and in control. And in addition to this, the staff at G-Media, some of which I know personally, are the most respectable and professional team I have ever come across in this industry.. The Abby Winters website gives us (ADULT) females a chance to express ourselves and our sexuality, in a safe envioronment. I cannot say a bad word about G-media and I hope they arent penalised further

By Happy AW Model on Jun 17, 2009

Doesn’t the Herald Sun have anything better to do than play whistleblower?

By Glenn on Jun 17, 2009

the herald sun were less whistleblower, more mccarthy unfortunately glenn.

By alphamone on Jun 17, 2009

You do mean “long term members” right, not “long term member”? Ha.

By Thomo on Jun 17, 2009

This company is disrespecting & using women to make as much profit as possible. Garion/ Abby is the one who makes all the money off his naive young female staff & models. He has no care for their saftey in the work place & tries to upsell posing levels to all models.
Its done as cheap as possible for as big as profit in Garions pocket as possible. He churns through staff & models before they catch on to the bigger picture.
The weird thing is he advertises for models in the herald sun & leader & models & staff on seek & herald sun r the ones leading investigation.

By G on Jun 17, 2009

G, that is so wrong: what is your gripe man (or woman)??? All the AW models I have talked to, like “happy” above, are entirely content with their work at AW and proud of their celebration of female sensuality. Yes, it is a business, and a pretty good one too (bringing a fair bit of money into the Australian economy, I would imagine), but it treats its models with respect and has a strong female input into its content too, or else it wouldn’t have the loyal membership it has. In the Melbourne I see on “Underbelly”, there’s an awful lot more important things for the police to be spending their time on than this cheap publicity stunt by a disreputable rag.

By Breezer on Jun 17, 2009

I’m a former employee of G-Media.

In my opinion, they have been one of the worst employers I’ve ever had. I agree with G completely. Garion pockets so much from the subscriptions, but the staff/models get so little back for their efforts.

The female staff he employs often find their roles paying only a token gesture to the feminist ideals the company pretends to portray; his control freak ways dominate and exploit the young & naive, with the stronger-willed women often finding themselves forced out. The staff turnover is so ridiculous even for a small business.

The Herald Sun only caught attention of the company because Garion refused to pay reasonable severance to a female videographer he let go. Hence she told her story.

You could say the root cause of the events leading to the raid are all centred around his arrogance, and he had better take a good look at himself.

Lastly, Garion only leveraged his way into his current market position because he used a fake female identity to deceive tens of thousands of subscribers, and used it to present an illusion of feminist paradise.

Breezer, what the heck would you know about AW. You’ve never worked there. Of course the models will only say nice things on the forum, because they’re moderated to suit company interests. Think with your brain instead of your pants next time.

To “Happy AW Model” – you might be satisfied you can pay your bills now, but give it a few years and I bet you’ll regret modelling for AW.

Your image is always going to be out there plastered over the web. The company will make endless profit off your body, many times larger than the one-time fee you got paid. You can forget about running for parliament (if the Pauline Hanson/Daily Telegraph scandal is anything to go by). You’ve made it much harder to hold a job in a profession such as law, PR, teaching etc. And it’ll cost you several grand to get your shoots taken down, but that still wouldn’t be the last of it, with the rampant piracy that goes on.

Liandra has mentioned that while she wrote her original blog, she was contacted by many ex-AW models expressing their regret.

I would also like to call on Mike to cite his source for Garion’s statement, as it does not seem to be independently reported anywhere else.

This whole incident is a double-edged sword for me. On one hand, I want to see the right to produce and consume non-violent erotica involving consenting individuals upheld. I consider it a pinnacle of freedom of speech in our society.

But on the other hand, the adult industry is horribly unregulated; the only real winners are the business owners.

Today’s society and media are much more attuned to picking out model’s shoots. The potential fallout is so much greater, and I think it’s only fair if the models involved get better remuneration for their performance, such as additional royalties. I have much better respect for a company like Feck that dared to try such a scheme.

I know the law in question here sucks, and I empathise for the employees that have been temporarily stood down, and had their employment history tarnished, which I likewise will have to deal with myself.

Garion certainly had a duty to inform all his employees of the relevant state laws, yet failed to do so, and exposed them all to potential criminal liability.

But I hope this whole experience for Garion and G-Media highlights the need for reform on the way they operate, and respect the model’s interests better.

Always remember that there are rights of people out there that need to be upheld, that are more important than your ability to have a wank in front of your screen.

By DX on Jun 18, 2009

I made a note in spanish about this Raid to Abby Winters. I am a big fan of the site and am sorry this has happened.
As a sexblogger I find lots of crappy porno and for me AW is sweet paradise, hope all this just makes it more popular.

By Ximena Eis on Jun 18, 2009

I’ve been a member of AW in the past and live in the US. I highly respect the company because it treats women not as a barbie doll, but as natural. Anytime there’s floods or fires going on (especially the brushfires awhile back, I had to email the feedback line at AW because I was concerned for the models. And did it again with this silly story. Some people seem to think that if a woman is nude, she’s being taken advantage of. Maybe 20-30 years ago. Not now. Not knowing the media in Australia , I’d almost venture a guess that Rupert Murdoch owns this tabloid… Sounds so much like Fox News. Reporting fiction as fact.

By Lee on Jun 18, 2009

G, thank you for making that decision for the Abby Winters models. They are obviously not qualified to decide what they can and can’t do with their bodies. Thank goodness we have people on the internet telling other people what to do.

By not G on Jun 18, 2009

G and DX, I am absolutely astounded at your comments. G, what makes you think you have the right to make assumptions about the maturity of the girls modelling for G Media, and patronise them the way you do? As someone who has associated closely with G Media, I can tell you that everything is explained to the girls, and great measures are taken that the models are well-informed and comfortable. It is not your place to cast judgements.

DX, I stopped reading your message half-way through, as I couldn’t find a single accurate statement in what I did read. I highly doubt that you were indeed a G Media employee, as every G Media employee I have known has been well-treated and loved their job. Frankly, while reading your comment I couldn’t help but wonder if you’re a tabloid reporter trying to poison the waters or something. Don’t you have anything better to do and besmirch the reputations of good, ethical people? Sheeeeeeesh.

Quite honestly, I have yet to come across an erotic site as ethical as AbbyWinters.com, though I’m guessing that kink.com in the US comes close. G Media treat the people they work with better than many other average non-porn employers do, so really, STFU.

By Irrelevant on Jun 18, 2009

Well-spoken, Mike. Thank you.

By Irrelevant on Jun 18, 2009

I work in IT, My employer makes alot more money from my work than my once a week fee i am paid its rediculous. I slave 40 hours a week to a greedy employer with huge pockets, taking all the rewards.

Wow, people like DX and G really need to remove themselves from free society.

By Jack F on Jun 18, 2009

Thankfully, alls well that ends well.

I’ve been following this whole controversy since Liandra started her blog after her break with G Media. From what little I’ve heard, there’s been some unfortunate personality conflict in the G Media family over the last few years. But what’s truly unfortunate is that a crusading pro-censorship journalist was able to capitalize on their “dirty laundry” to needlessly bring this matter before law enforcement. I don’t know what you’re libel laws are like in Australia, but I seriously hope Garion considers suing the bastard.

By Iamcuriousblue on Jun 18, 2009

“Your image is always going to be out there plastered over the web. The company will make endless profit off your body, many times larger than the one-time fee you got paid. You can forget about running for parliament (if the Pauline Hanson/Daily Telegraph scandal is anything to go by). You’ve made it much harder to hold a job in a profession such as law, PR, teaching etc. And it’ll cost you several grand to get your shoots taken down, but that still wouldn’t be the last of it, with the rampant piracy that goes on.”

Hey you know, maybe that’s the fault of a patriarchal society that condemns female sexuality, female bodies and just generally fails to recognise womyn as full human beings as well.

What a jerk.

By AileenWuornos on Jun 18, 2009

hi i am a current model at the AW website and i am sick of all the shit you are saying about us. I honestly do love modelling for the site, and i am not saying that because i am on it. i have been a model for a year now and i have made some great money, and some great friends through this company. i am 23 years old and perfectly capable of making my own desision on what to do with my body and i dont regret it for a minute. my family and friends and even my partner are aware i do work for the site, doesnt that say something!!! so these photos will be around for years??? we all knew what we were getting into! i would love to jump back on the site in 30 years time (if it is still around) and remember how great i looked!
this is a company who appreciate healthy aussie natural girls. we made the decision to call the number and go for the interview, and what we do after that is completely up to us models! so you are uspet that i like sex, i am proud of my body and im not ashamed to show it??? get over it!

By blaire on Jun 18, 2009

This situation will become worse if the internet filter is in place. AbbyWinters.com will be shut down unless people use a VPN or some other circumvention tool to access the site and apply as a member.

By Glenn on Jun 18, 2009

Looks like I need to set a few things clear.

Irrelevant: I’ve verified my identity/employment with Mike, ask him to vouch for me.

You sound like a AW model or overtly enthusiastic member. Nothing wrong with that, but your contact with the AW staff has been through controlled means (either on company time or on the forums). Of course they’ll only be telling you good things because the company wants you to come back again.

If you were to interact with the (ex-)staffers in person outside company time and off the record, you’d be learning things along lines of what G is talking about. Not surprisingly Garion tries to prevent that from happening.

AileenWuornos & Blaire: I know damn well that it sucks we’re in a patriarchal society that projects forced views and expectations on women, that are counter-constructive to their well-being.

What concerns me is factors like rising cost of living, gender-wage disparity on young women might exert pressure on their decision to model. The original Liandra blog also covered the fact that the risks of getting busted were consistently understated in the past, which I something I’ll assert as well.

If you’re comfortable with modelling, if it enriches your confidence, and everyone around you is okay with it, then more power to you. If it fits well with your career path/lifestyle, then great for you; I’m not going to argue with your choice.

Keep in mind I’ve seen some models leap right into such careers with a strong head, thinking that they’ll have industrial relations on their side if they get busted. Unfortunately it later all blew apart and they’ve had to change careers/paths drastically. The rate of cases where this scenario happens seems to be increasing steadily over the years.

The whole point is that even though the law says an 18-year old woman can sign contracts by herself, does she really have the life experience needed to judge if she can handle nude modelling on the internet? Does she’ll know what she’ll be doing in 5-7 years time?

Keep in mind that prospective models can only attend the interview by themselves (they can only bring a female friend along if she’s also a candidate). Can’t bring any support buddies – everyone else that talks to her represents the company, and it’s in the company’s ultimate interest to get her to agree to modelling.

They can warn her about the risks, but what they tell her is entirely self-regulated. She doesn’t know any other existing non-company models and might not be experienced with seeking legal advice on contracts.

What I’d rather see is formation of a models’ union, so prospective models can get access to better, independent advice, and hold the company to account in the way in which they get treated. I know other ex-staffers that agree with me on this.

By DX on Jun 19, 2009

Lastly, one more thing.

The AW model Brandy, was tragically killed last year in an unfortunate accident. However AW.com is still publishing her sets, despite pressure from some models and members who asked Garion to consider taking her material down (given she likely had kept her modelling secret from family/friends). I’ll throw open the discussion of ethics on that note.

By DX on Jun 19, 2009

I have mixed feelings.

I do believe that by the standards of the Porn industry in general, AbbyWinters is clearly an ethical step up. The girls seem everything they are supposed to be, happy, healthy, empowered, drug free and independant. They dont appear exploited.

However, i think there may be issues around some of the ways the girls are recruited, particularly travellers/backpackers who, whilst already a long way from home, may feel less risk of being ‘busted’. They are also much more in need of the cash bonus.

I also think the one of the fundimental success of the site has been in recruiting users who buy the subscriptions. This may seem obvious but most believe they are buying the creation of a feminist female photographer called Abby. This is clearly a myth. Garion has made people feel better about buying porn because they think they are buying it from a woman. Its not true. As we long suspected, Garion is Abby and this maybe the biggest expolitation of all.

By Addicted on Jun 19, 2009

I’m sorry you feel that way DX. But from my experience there a lot of people who are less than satisfied with their treatment at past or current jobs. most ppl i know dislike their job and/or employer. and yes most large companies make a bucket load of prophet and pay their staff/contractors/whatever very little by comparison. it’s the nature of the business world. i’m not saying it’s ok, but gmedia is no different from the thousands of other businesses in that regard.

I was very satisfied with the information i was given at my interview where the consequences of my modeling were discussed with me. I don’t believe there was anything more that the interviewer could have said or done to emphasize the point that i needed to really think about what may happen as a result of modeling for gmedia. so i don’t think the company can be blamed for the few models who insist they’re ok with it and then realize they regret it later. I can’t speak for the models in the past. I don’t know what it was like in the early days. But i know there are models who have been there from the start who are still supportive of the company. i think this says a lot.

i will admit that when i first heard that this site claiming to be all about female empowerment was actually run by i male i felt a little cheated. but that was before i’d even done an interview with them. to me it’s run by a very smart male who has created an extremely respectful environment for the models. and despite being ultimately run by a male it IS very empowering for us models. so well done to him for making it a success.

By Katherine_F on Jun 19, 2009

DX –

I just am not buying your argument. Of all the arguments I’ve heard about the ethics of porn production, the “it ruins women’s futures” is among the weakest.

Its fundamentally based on some seriously regressive notions about a woman’s “reputation” and how that’s tainted by being too openly sexual. People who bring this up as an argument against pornography for the most part don’t do anything to challenge such reactionary notions in the larger culture or work for sex workers’ rights, among which is the right not to suffer job discrimination based on status as a current or former sex worker. No – instead they place the onus squarely on pornographers for the bigoted reactions that third parties have toward their participation in porn.

Nor do I buy the argument that 18 and 19 year-olds are simply too young to understand the future consequences of their behavior. These are adults, for fuck sake, and certainly old enough to, for example, sign up to fight (and potentially die) in combat in the militaries of Australia, the US, and many other countries.

That this argument against Abby Winters hiring practices is ass-backwards, condescending, and paternalistic is clearly evident to me.

By Iamcuriousblue on Jun 19, 2009

I’m a subscriber at aw. It must be horrible for those involved in the raid – and many of the staff are former models in their early twenties.

But good could come of it, I think if it leads AW to become a bit more honest.

For a start, G Media seems to have finally given up pretending that Abby Winters is a real person. A week ago, it wouldn’t have been possible to link to a somewhat critical post like this from the AW boards. The thread about this on the AW boards is well worth a look, too, I think, especially the model comments

http://forums.abbywinters.com:80/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11185

By ggg on Jun 19, 2009

This might be of interest – I found that the Victoria Police, the agency that carried out this raid, have a feedback page that reads:

“What are your thoughts on current Victoria Police initiatives? Let us know – Leave a comment”

Comments are published on the above page.

By Iamcuriousblue on Jun 19, 2009

It amuses me that DX brought up the Pauline Hanson/Daily Telegraph saga as an example of how women who pose nude or appear in sex films can’t run as parliamentary candidates. First up, Hanson had already been elected to the federal seat of Oxley more than a decade before the nude photo story broke. It was her own incompetence and policies that led her not to be re-elected. The photographs that were supposed her, weren’t (the guy who was shopping them around was also supposedly selling nude photos of Therese Rein – the guy was highly suss and the Telegraph didn’t even think about questioning his story).

Also a number of high profile porn stars have run for office including Jodie Moore who ran for election in Queensland.

By Matthew on Jun 19, 2009

DX keeps telling us to talk to ex models and ex employees and we will get a much different story…
Tell me DX, how is that any different to any other industry? I know in the industry I am in, the vast majority are VERY happy, but there are the ever so few who have left for what ever reason, and they will grind their axe if they feel like it.
AW or Gmedia is no different in this respect. Just because a few people percieve it to be a certain way doesn’t mean that it is the case. There will always be personality clashes and difference of optinion. Just be careful when sprouting it as fact.

BTW thumbs up to AW and the team at GMedia. As for this so called ‘deception’ about Garion being Abby, well there is a thread in their forums that tells us that Garion is the boss and Abby is no more….

By JackTar on Jun 19, 2009

I’ve been an AW subscriber for over 5 years and a member of the AW community that hangs out and chats on the site’s discussion boards. I can vouch for the truthfulness of the comments posted above by blaire and Katherine_F, as I know them from their many posts the AW discussion boards to be honest and thoughtful people. The post by “Happy AW model” also echoes similar comments made by other models over the years — e.g. one who wrote that she hadn’t bargained for the extent to which her AW modelling experience made her feel more positively about herself. I recall another model writing about feeling “loved and respected”.

The number of models who go away for a while and then come back either to do more modelling, or to take up staff positions in the company, speaks volumes about the way AW treats its models. AW is a site where models are valued and respected for the people they are, not just for the bodies they have. And damned impressive people most of them are, too.

By takochan on Jun 19, 2009

Manual trackback:

AbbyWinters Raided!

By Iamcuriousblue on Jun 20, 2009

Takochan, in all the hours you have happily spent in the AW online community, have you never questioned whether the good vibes you have felt are so consistently there because of the very close moderation and control of the forums? It is the company’s interactive showcase, and is deliberately left open for the world to see how “wholesome” it is.

But you may not have been aware that the models finally selected to go to the AVN Expo in Las Vegas in January 2008 went through extensive role-play training in order to be word-perfect in every scenario they might meet, so that there would be minimal risk of the company’s secrets being divulged. If that wasn’t enough, the models even had to be subjected to the weekly photographing of their pubic hair growth, so that the company could ensure they would be “natural and hairy” when it came to the show itself. Is this respecting the models, do you think? Couldn’t Garion Hall even trust them to fulfil this “growth requirement” without doing that?

By StreetView on Jun 20, 2009

It seems to me that all of the contributors to this topic want to see the same thing, which could be summed up as a more enlightened approach to all aspects of erotica.

To bring that about will require an ongoing revolution in the attitudes and perceptions of, makers, politicians, the wider public, etc. In its earlier stages Abbywinters did look to be in the vanguard of such a change, but for some time now has seemed to be more interested in maximising income and profit by adopting more of the approaches of the rest of the industry, and generally maintaining the status quo, whilst any innovation has been more to do with technical and presentational issues. The “approaches of the rest of the industry” would include such things as the shabby practice of using models’ sets for advertising off site, and the paying of commissions to affiliates for sales generated from those sets, whilst denying any payment to the models.

Abbywinters deserves credit for anything it does that advances the move to a more enlightened approach to erotica, but deserves a kicking for anything that retards it. Unfortunately, Abbywinters has systematically deceived subscribers throughout its entire existence in order to further its own agenda, and as is always the case, has found it necessary to keep adding to the lies and deception in order to protect the original deceit. Could any of the contributors who defend Abbywinters explain why that is any less reprehensible in its motivation and ethics, than Moor’s article in the Herald Sun.?

Abbywinters, like all erotica sites, depends for its very existence on freedom of expression, so you would have thought that they would be in the front rank defending the right anywhere and everywhere. Not a bit of it.! Abbywinters, just like some totalitarian Communist regime, keeps a vice-like grip on, and suppresses, any information that reveals it to be something other than what it claims to be.

In short, Abbywinters is, or has become, a good deal more cynical than might appear at first sight. Oscar Wilde defined a cynic as someone who knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing. In Abbywinters’ case, it has yet to recognise fully the true value of freedom of expression, and the true value of the models, who, it has to be said, often seem not to recognise their own true value, although on their part, that’s nothing to do with being cynics.

By GJD on Jun 21, 2009

DX –

While I do appreciate a lot of what you’ve said and have used some of it as starting points for my own discussion of this matter elsewhere, I have to admit that your motives became suss to me when you brought Brandy up for discussion. Are you on a slander campaign or do you really want to talk about the ‘double-edged sword’ that this brings up for all of us in the local porn industry? I don’t see what she has to do with any of this and I think you do a disservice to her and her memory in bringing her up for debate here. The matter of what to do in a situation like this would be difficult for anyone in Garion’s position – I know that Richard Lawrence of Feck struggled with it himself and brought it to the attention of some of his staff for discussion. You may find it personally difficult to deal with the actions (or lack thereof) that were taken by G-Media, but as many of the models on that site discussed in the thread linked to above, if she was proud to have done the work then perhaps it does her greater disrespect to remove it. None of us can know what she would have wanted and I think what’s done is done. Leave her to rest in peace.

Apart from that I am glad that you have commented here as I think the perspectives of those folks who have existed within the machinations of these companies are a valid part of our overall understanding of the situation. I just think Brandy’s not really relevant to that.

By bee ess on Jun 21, 2009

bee ess

In the absence of any clear instructions from the model herself, the issue is largely a matter of judgement, taking into account principally the perceived interests of the model herself, and also of her close family. Inevitably that judgement, like many judgements, would be made on the basis of insufficient information.

However, there is a third group whose interests should be considered.

Do you not think that Abbywinters has an obligation to inform its subscribers whether they’re looking at a now deceased model, so that they can adjust their personal context in which they look at the model.? For that reason, I would say the issue is relevant.

By GJD on Jun 21, 2009

I think the disloyal thing Abby Winters – aka Garion Hall – has done to its models is allow the content to be viewed by Australian subscribers. If Australian subscribers only form 10% of sales, and thus hardly anything, why not restrict the site to overseas subscribers? This would insure less chance of models being busted, embarrassed, employment trouble, family shame and all the rest. The technology is simple and easy to implement.

By Luke on Jun 22, 2009

@bee ess: It does look painfully out of context here, in reality there’s not many other places where one can bring up the matter among one of the concerned parties – subscribers of the site. I am open to better avenues for raising the issue. Apologies if it upset you.

While some could perceive mine and G’s comments as traducement, I felt it necessary to present a devil’s advocate POV, since some “in favour” arguments fail to account that the AW forums are carefully filtered such that model dissent is unlikely to appear. I was informed by Liandra Dahl that she was contacted by around 200 ex-AW models that expressed regret, at the time of her original blog publication.

This will be my final comment on this article, as I want to move on. Thank you all for your contributions.

By DX on Jun 22, 2009

GJD, I agree that Abbywinters would have done well to inform its members about poor Brandy’s demise, and I, too, am sorry if raising her name has upset anyone. But, in the absence of an official announcement, a genuine attempt was made a long time ago on their forums to let members know that she was no longer. Unfortunmately that didn’t suit the owner, who had new sets and videos of her to release, and it was instantly removed by the boards’ moderator there on Garion Hall’s express instruction.

That is the type of thing which has gone on in the tightly-controlled AW atmosphere, so that members are continually deliberately kept in the dark. It would be nice to hope that sort of over-regulation might now become a thing of the past.

By StreetView on Jun 22, 2009

streetview –
you seem to want to portray the media training girls went through before vegas as a bad thing.

” extensive role-play training in order to be word-perfect in every scenario they might meet, so that there would be minimal risk of the company’s secrets being divulged.”

this seems completely absurd – ‘how dare the company inform the chosen models how to carry themselves well and keep cool under pressure and in the spotlight!?’

OF COURSE ANY COMPANY would do training when choosing new spokespeople!

we are not professional actresses nor are we trained presenters.

no company would want it’s new faces to be bumbling messes that embarrass themselves and/ or the company. especially at an industry expo!

as for the documented pubic hair growth, i don’t particularly see how this is a question of ‘respecting models’.
the models applied specifically to be in the group that went to vegas, and knew there would be training and grooming requirements, how is that so different to any other job?
preshoot checks occur for every single shoot, i can’t see how one photo a week of your growth is disrespectful to models, especially when you’re getting a free trip to vegas out of it. please.

By jette on Jun 22, 2009

DX you have spoken well but it’s unfortunately falling on a lot of deaf ears. This is an ethically alarming company/man. I do not believe it should be illegal to produce the content here. If someone from Melbourne is free, informed and aware of all the circumstances and comfortable, they should be free to do what they like in a safe environment. No one should be able to make that decision for you, especially via a law that took 9 years to come to terms with itself. I also don’t agree with the Herald Sun’s conduct and I’m disappointed that it seems to have forced Liandra Dahl to react adversely. The real issue has been lost here, sadly.

I modeled for the company some years ago. I replied to an innocent advertisement offering payment for tasteful nude photographic work, which as far as I knew, seemed to be the case when I went for the interview. I never really considered that I was stepping into the adult industry in any way. I was of course, at face value, treated with respect and the staff were friendly, welcoming and made me comfortable. I was aware the site offered more explicit opportunities that I would not partake in but felt as long as I don’t feel comfortable doing that, that would not have anything to do with me and that was that. I was assured that the site was strictly members only and that only people who pay for membership would view them and to this respectful audience, my body and beauty would be celebrated tastefully, just like the happy, natural women in the brilliant shots I was shown. I had never met anyone who would pay to see photographs like this (and my parents certainly wouldn’t look) and if there was a website promoting natural, healthy females then I agreed with that. Having no grand aspirations, I didn’t plan to be married or certainly wouldn’t have children. As I was young, on my own and felt I could trust the people at the interview, I was assured when I felt what I was signing was just a formality so everything was legit. I would be paid, what them seemed like a lot back then and I believed the company acted in an honorable way. I proceeded in shooting, did a lot I’m not proud of, a lot I wasn’t comfortable with and I’ll have to live with it all for the rest of my life. My problem. I now know I, and many others were intentionally mislead.
The content by intentional design, can be taken off the site and freely shared and the policy of recruitment was to mislead women. This is the real issue that should concern everyone, but the majority who care to write in regarding this company and these issues are the ones who support it, either with something to loose, gain or defend. Members, comfortable models, employees, ignorant fans etc. The minority are the ones like myself, who’s silence is dependent on fear of exposure, shame, buried emotions or just general ’something else to do’ cause I’ve moved on and don’t care to talk or think about it anymore. Lied to. Exploited. betrayed and ashamed. These people, like me, do care and the people connected to us d/have and may very well continue to suffer. I do not believe the CEO of this company is as righteous as he has tried so hard to make himself appear. He simply created a site and a woman that does 2 things;
1. provides a good porn site to the world enabling people who view it to feel better about enjoying it.
2. Invites a better number and quality of young women to be exploited. Weather they feel it, know it or not.

By Meredith on Jun 22, 2009

Jette, a most able rejoinder, if I may say so.

Perhaps if you speak to any of the other models who’ve commented you could reassure them that they’re not being criticised in any way for their choices or anything else. In their different ways, they all come over as charming, intelligent, articulate people.

The case that’s being made in different ways by others, is that regardless of how much the models enjoy the experience of modelling, and its incidental benefits such as confidence boosting, that isn’t a substitute for a full and proper recognition of your true value, both in terms of your place in the overall exercise of making erotica, and also the makers’ bottom lines. It’s about a sea change in perception and attitudes to the whole panoply of issues involved with the making and distribution of erotica, and in particular the paramount importance of the issues involved in the models’ participation.

By GJD on Jun 22, 2009

GJD and Jette: I’m afraid I don’t think that was necessarily an “able rejoinder”:

You see, Jette quoted two linked phrases of mine, chose to discard the second one, which had been the main point (that the training was to have the result of preserving the corporate secrecy) and elected to answer, almost like a politician would, only the first part! To compound this, she put words into my mouth by caricaturing my remark in deliberately absurd terms so as to give a springboard for her comments … which she then started off in capitals shout mode.

Of course companies train staff for public events. But many of the models attending Las Vegas, true to their training, happily chatted to Abbywinters members at the show, and talked fluently about Garion Hall and Abby Winters as two separate people involved with the site. In other words they had been expertly trained to push the main deception of identity. That was my point.

However, your apparent complete lack of concern about the intrusive nature of the weekly personal grooming checks and photographs carried out on the Vegas models, bearing in mind the prize they were being offered (of the trip to the US), seems to indicate that if someone dangled a big enough carrot there might be little you wouldn’t be prepared to do for Garion Hall. It’s truly great for you that you can feel like that, and I hope you will continue to look back with pride and fond memories at all you have been doing in this line. However, since you have also just told the world on the Abbywinters forums that you had a less than 100% enthusiastic response when in the past 48 hours you told your father of your modelling activities, perhaps you can understand that there have been other models, like Meredith, whose recollections of the experience aren’t as positive as yours.

By StreetView on Jun 23, 2009

One of the striking things about Abby Winters is the amount of anger it
generates in some people. I can understand that in a staff member who has been sacked, or a model who regrets her decision – though AW really does seem to try hard to get this side of things right. Buy why StreetView and others are so furious about them, to the point of launching an attack like this on a 19 year old model, is just beyond me.

It’s got to the point where an entire bulletin board have been set up dedicated to dissecting everything Abby Winters does; I’m guessing that StreetView is the person who helped set it up (are you?).

AW clearly does some things wrong – the pointless attempt to maintain the Abby myth, evidently staff relations, possibly insufficient information being given to models (though several models have said the opposite here and elsewhere). But it also clearly does a lot right: health policies, good rates of pay, all-female shooting crews, charitable contribution and the sheer brilliance of much of what it produces.

So why are you so mad at them? I genuinely don’t get it.

By ggg on Jun 23, 2009

Why so mad?
What part of ‘intentionally mislead’ seems to be getting lost here?
So many of us models who replied to the ads were first mislead by the ads themselves and then by the company. It was standard procedure. (while the rest of the world sat en enjoyed a great website, this city was getting figuratively raped) I can’t speak for what happens inside there now, but that changes nothing. If one more ignoramus mentions the great health and safety, or the standard of the product… It’s a business. Of course the health policies are good. Of course tax deducible charity contributions are made. Wouldn’t you run a business as legit as you could on paper if your morals lacked a large piece of humanity? Good pay rates you say? Hundreds$, even thousands$ come and go in an instant, but my photos will remain in the cyber world forever.. and that’s a big deal to a lot of people. Make no doubt about it. Female shooting crews?… Mr H took the photos back in our day.
Everyone was encouraged to keep the myth of abby alive. In the forums we were offered prizes for the most posts, Vouchers, ipods etc. told to never mention those things, as well as our pay and always refer to our photographer as abby.

By Meredith on Jun 23, 2009

Posted by StreetView

“But many of the models attending Las Vegas, true to their training, happily chatted to Abbywinters members at the show, and talked fluently about Garion Hall and Abby Winters as two separate people involved with the site. In other words they had been expertly trained to push the main deception of identity. That was my point”.

And a point well made StreetView. The identity deception issue is tantamount to advertising something for what it is not. In some countries that is illegal and can attract a heavy fine.

The amazing thing to me is that so many staff and models actually want to protect this deception when they know absolutely that there is and never was anyone called Abby Winters.

Believing your own lies is one thing. Purporting that other people’s lies are true when you know better is very strange behaviour.

By Flowery Trail on Jun 23, 2009

Firstly, i thank those who have read the about comments with an open and object mind, obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion and views, the problem lies in people believing they know what is ‘right’ or ‘respectable/appropriate behaviour’ for others.

as i doubt that further discussion is helpful this will be my last post – we could go back and forth forever, who did this, who said that.
i respect that other women may have made a decision they regret. it however is a personal decision and equally personal reaction, based on their own experiences.

to streetview: you are obviously immovable in your thoughts, and now have chosen to liken me to what? an animal being lured by carrots? that is sadly more disrespectful than anything i have encountered thus far in my life.
i apologize if my use of capitals offended you.

i can only speculate as to why you are so interested in the forum content, seeing as you seem to be avidly in disagreement about the company. i do wonder why you feel the need to attempt to use information found there to push me into agreeing with your views. yes i have told my father, and ‘the world’ about our discussion (yes i do know the internet is available to everyone).
it was always going to be an awkward conversation, but personally, it was important to me to be honest. there is no shame or regret at all there. and i did not defend my AW work. i do not believe there is anything to defend. even to my father.

lastly,
i am involved in the site because i genuinely believe that people should have access to porn that doesn’t portray unrealistic stereotypes, and presents happy, healthy women in a positive light.
everyone likes sex, everyone has it, why is watching people do what we all enjoy (or being involved in the making of it) something to be ashamed of?

i certainly am not, and will not be.

By jette on Jun 23, 2009

jette

Truly sorry, ‘though not surprised, to read your comments.

I fully support freedom of expression, including the right to offend, but it certainly hasn’t been my intention to offend either you, or any of the other models, so if I’ve done so unintentionally then please accept my apologies. Any comments I make on the issues involved are directed squarely at the practices within the industry, and most certainly not at the models who share their beauty and love of life.

You’re a lovely lady jette, and I think the penultimate sentence in your post is about the most succinct articulation of the case for pornography and erotica that I’ve ever read.

Stay happy.

By GJD on Jun 23, 2009

Meredith, does your contract stipulate if your images can be removed and the cost? I would hope something is available to you and I’m sorry for your experience. I think it would be interesting for someone to post the contract online. I’m sure many activist lawyers would be keen to di sect the contact.

Mike its not censorship but simple respect for the Australian models.

By Luke on Jun 23, 2009

@Luke.
The cost of removing sets is often prohibitivley high. The site, in this case AW, requires not just the return of the modeling fee, but also the cost of production, post production, web hosting, advertsing, affiliates, overheads and loss of profit.
This increases even further if the model has participated in scenes with other actors/models, whose contribution to that set will also have to be removed, by default.

@Meredith. I think your posts on this thread are intelligent and insightful. Your contribution to this debate is truly valuable and i thank you for that.

By Addicted on Jun 24, 2009

Sorry if you were offended, Jette, but the carrot thing was a metaphor. Perhaps there’s been a dearth of metaphors in Melbourne!

By StreetView on Jun 24, 2009

I’ve just read through all of your posts.

The one thing that stands out is that adult females who once consented to what was expected of them now claim to be victims.

This is a feminist tactic of old : always blame others for the social or sexual discomfort you now experience and deny any personal responsibility for the decisions you’ve made in the past.

Suggestion is that these women stop trying to be victims and reflect on how their own behaviour has contributed to the position they are now in.

Arnold

By dr arnold veraa on Jun 27, 2009

Hey compared to all of the shit thats on the internet, ir the rest of the porn sites were as tasteful as abby winters, it would be a much better net. If these guys want to go after smut, why not search out the real pervs out there.

By M on Jun 27, 2009

M, the object of the exercise is not to “go after smut”, but to sell newspapers, in just the same way that abbywinters wants to sell subscriptions. The cynicism arises in the way they each pursue that objective.

By GJD on Jun 27, 2009

Victim? This is not about regret. I enjoyed my shoots, for the most part.. I made the decision to call, to arrange an interview. I chose to trust what I was being told. This issue, as far as a model and others are concerned is not in any way about blame or regret. Is honesty and integrity too much to expect from a company/man that deals in a medium remains forever? there are enough willing females, free and informed that would need no manipulation, no deceit necessary. Not enough apparently. Posters around high schools (Where most turn 18), Tafes, university’s, Common places for people in transit, locally. As well as travelers who are on a budget. (This is all fact by the way. I state this a citizen whose witnessed all of this) Does this sound like the conduct of a pro-female organisation to admire? If your answer is close to yes than I ask that you leave you thoughts and comment to yourself. This is a serious issue despite the money being made and the people involved. I’m not trying to evoke an online feud. I’m simply trying to state a truth that, has sadly, has been overlooked because the herald sun misused Liandra Dahl’s blog.

By Meredith on Jun 28, 2009

An incisive post Meredith and you’re absolutely right – it is indeed a serious isse irrespective of the money being made etc.

By Flowery Trail on Jun 28, 2009

At first sight it might seem useful to have a contribution from so eminent a person as Dr Veraa. His dismissal of those former models who are unhappy, as playig some old-fashioned feminist blame-game, might put at ease any who had felt uncomfortable.

But Dr Veraa is, perhaps unknown to many, Garion Hall’s father. His wish to support his son is therefore understandable. But is it sustainable?

By StreetView on Jun 28, 2009

Arnold, the points you raise are of course valid, insofar as adults are responsible for their own behaviour, and should be prepared to discharge the contracts they enter into.

However, I note that in your last sentence that you raise the equally valid notion of contributory behaviour. Presumably, therefore, you would accept that others too would have to accept their contribution to any negative outcomes.?

Indeed, to deny that, would be like trying to blame the misfortunes of those who took out mortgages that they were subsequently unable to service, and the global banking crisis that followed, solely on those who didn’t fully grasp the risk they were taking on. As we’re all aware, the banking crisis was caused primarily by the greed and stupidity of the bankers, and the ignorance and incompetence of politicians in failing to ensure proper regulation, and one doesn’t have to look too far in order to see the parallels with the adult entertainment industry.

By GJD on Jun 28, 2009

“As we’re all aware, the banking crisis was caused primarily by the greed and stupidity of the bankers, and the ignorance and incompetence of politicians in failing to ensure proper regulation, and one doesn’t have to look too far in order to see the parallels with the adult entertainment industry.”

And what, pray tell, did G Media do that should be the target of legislation? The only complaints I’ve heard so far is that GM targeted “wanted” ads toward young women (duh – the are a porn company, after all), and that some that answered these ads later regretted their decision.

So what kind of regulations are going to prevent this? And are your proposals substantially different from the kind of nanny-statism propagated by British New Labour and their Australian counterparts?

So far all the AbbyWinters-bashing here seems like a lot of heat and very little light on the situation.

By Iamcuriousblue on Jul 1, 2009

So many family’s here, whether they know it yet or ever will, have been effected by this company and the people under it. What is a parent or guardian to do? Say to a child: ‘Hey child, a company we wont be aware of may come along and under the guise of an artistic, alternative and tasteful nude photography establishment promoting natural female values, and offer you money to participate. They may present it all this way so you feel you can trust that. They may lie to you about where they intend for this to end up for maximum profit and promotion. They may offer you more cash and happily/supportively convince you to do something you thought you never would and wish you could take back almost immediately (they may be very well trained at this). They may even have something for you to sign that they’ll brush over quickly in a friendly, innocent fashion. You may, at the adult age of 18, lack the experience, wisdom and general knowledge to make a free and informed decision that is best for you. They may be so good at all this that once you step into their space it’s too late. You may even buy all this bullshit forever, or for many years until you realise you were not treated in an honest way, and that your naked body is tattooed all over the world wide web and so extremely far more accessible than you were led to believe. You may forfeit your rights to so many things you never dreamed in your wildest nightmares so a man could make as much money as possible from exploiting yours, and so many other, young and innocent females…. You may then be lumped into a category of someone ‘who answered these ads later regretted their decision’. You may freely choose to work in the adult industry!.. or you may grow up in Melbourne .. and have it come to you.’

There are many simple regulations to prevent this. This has clearly been unregulated for some time.

Those who are said to simply ‘regret’…
Despite the immoral conduct of this company in particular, Does no-one care enough to agree that these people, (and they are many) as fellow human beings have suffered? and this will continue to, As well as those connected to them.? And it maybe not unreasonable to expect society and our community to help? Or least understand?

Here, an adult of 18 years of age is legally allowed to gamble. This does not change the fact that, to a lot of people gambling is dangerous and has proven to effect lives. To take away someone’s right to choose is not the answer, but our government saw it appropriate to implement warning signs in gambling venues.
But that seems to be an outrageous notion based on what I’ve seen here. Those who seem to enjoy flexing their argument muscles, those with something to lose (money), those who are proud and feel they were treated well, those who’ve had their opinions twisted (brainwashed) by the product, those who don’t agree with the herald sun’s actions..

People with heart, who care to understand this situation properly are all too scarce to have a clear truth shown: That a very large percentage of this city was harmed, intentionally mislead then exploited, on a massive scale. So many lives will never be the same.

By Meredith on Jul 1, 2009

@Meredith (and everyone else who has doubts about this company):

Suppose you were in charge of Abby Winters. What would you have them do differently? Or do you think that no company doing the type of thing they do should exist at all?

By ggg on Jul 1, 2009

Firstly, I certainly, and in no way believe ‘no company doing the ‘type’ of thing they do should exist at all’. In terms of the product. Pornography has always and always will be apart of the world as well as enjoyed. Free, informed and willing models should be appreciated and respected. Also, honestly, if I was to suggest a website (or rather idea) to be a ‘free and informed’ pornographic model on, one that preaches the values of this one would be close to, if not at, the top of the list. It is a great concept and it’s success is, in a way, testament to that. It definitely takes a lot to understand that Mr H knew this, and works (has worked) very hard to maintain the ideals of his alter-ego, in the many eyes of others. I personally don’t mind greatly that A.Winters never existed. If I was a member, I may feel different but I can’t comment on that aspect too much, as I have a different perspective. I have also stated that I don’t agree with the laws prohibiting porn for profit. If I was to speculate I’d say they may have been put in place to deter the behavior discussed. But I can’t say for sure.

If in charge, what I would do differently?
Contain my greed.. I’d firstly not have stepped outside the adult industry to recruit 18 year olds so heavily, from every single walk of life here. I’d not have the site setup so removing the content is so ‘encouraged’. I’d not have my staff be so adamant about the site being viewable, exclusively, by paying members only. I’d find a way to see that all models were sure they were aware of what they were getting involved in. I’d certainly not allow any ‘pressure’ on a shoot, even if it’s made with the biggest smile and the best possible words, with a bunch of cash at hand. I’d have models paid a lot more. (if not only to counter the honesty, as I realise there would be a lot more people not willing to model being aware of everything). I’d not masquerade as ‘nude photography’. I’d not target the naive and cater to their naivety. I’d have more achievable removal options, if not only to appear to have more of a heart. I’d somehow inform models that producing pornographic material for profit is, in a way, illegal here (but this would be bad for business, of course). I’d not offer such prizes to encourage forum posts on the site (that doesn’t look good on paper, but it’s good for business). I wouldn’t be Mr G. I’d be far more honest so my hard work and idea could be celebrated and enjoyed the way it should have been, rather than just a vessel to make as much money as possible for an intelligent and morally devastating man.

By Meredith on Jul 1, 2009

Sorry, when I wrote: ‘adamant about the site being viewable, exclusively, by paying members only.’ I meant: ‘Content’ being viewable etc’

By Meredith on Jul 1, 2009

Iamcuriousblue, the original topic was the police raid on abbywinters and the Herald Sun’s involvement. The paragraph you quote refers to the industry more widely, although as such, obviously includes abbywinters.

Before Britain started using Australia as a penal colony, it used to ship convicts to America. All too often the convicts had been found guilty of relatively trivial offences, but as British law at the time was concerned principally with the protection of property, and those with most of the property were principally the ones who could influence or make the laws, it’s not surprising that much of the legislation at the time was concerned with what benefited them.

It’s a familiar pattern, and countless examples could be provided; those with control invariably want to arrange things to suit their own interests, and when their interests are threatened by valid competing interests, they’re quick to come up with the usual panoply of tactics to guard their own interests, which then leads to the situation where a practice can be perfectly legal, and yet manifestly biased, prejudiced, imbalanced and unethical, until such time as the practice is either abandoned, or the law is changed. The cry of nanny-state interference is often heard when an entrenched interest is challenged.

Now, unless you take the view that everything within the porn industry is hunky-dory, fair, ethical, and could not conceivably be improved upon, then I would have to assume that you acknowledge that there are aspects of the porn industry which are in need of reform.?

In my view, the problems with the porn industry flow from the imbalance of power between the participants and the makers, which in itself flows from the currently incomplete, inconsistent legislation regarding copyright, and the failure to recognise legally the models’ authorship of the content which the maker records. As I understand it, as the law currently stands, there is no distinction between a maker hiring an inanimate prop to use in a photoset or video, and hiring a model to bring a whole range of thought, emotion, intellect etc to the same photoset or video. Once that distinction is properly made, and recognised legally via copyright, then many of the negative aspects of porn production would evaporate.

The first response to this topic, by r, identifies one of the things that would flow from such a change, however it also has to be said that at least one maker, Richard Lawrence of Feck, is already moving voluntarily to a more enlightened approach with his Feckshare programme. Other, less progressive thinkers, will no doubt continue with their more parochial self-interest until legislation requires them to change.

By GJD on Jul 2, 2009

“Now, unless you take the view that everything within the porn industry is hunky-dory, fair, ethical, and could not conceivably be improved upon, then I would have to assume that you acknowledge that there are aspects of the porn industry which are in need of reform.?

No, actually, I don’t take that view, but the devil is in the details, now isn’t it? It really makes a difference what kind of “reforms” you’re talking about and who exactly gets power and representation under such reforms. You speak of an imbalance of power, but as you may or may not be aware, right now there are a lot of proposed legislation to help “exploited” sex workers by simply giving more power to the State. Criminalizing the purchase of sexual services, banning at least some forms of pornography, and the like. This is clearly the approach taken by the author of the Herald Sun piece, by New Labour and its Australian equivalents, by radical feminist activists like Sheila Jeffreys, and the mentality that was behind the utterly misguided police raid on G Media.

“In my view, the problems with the porn industry flow from the imbalance of power between the participants and the makers, which in itself flows from the currently incomplete, inconsistent legislation regarding copyright, and the failure to recognise legally the models’ authorship of the content which the maker records. As I understand it, as the law currently stands, there is no distinction between a maker hiring an inanimate prop to use in a photoset or video, and hiring a model to bring a whole range of thought, emotion, intellect etc to the same photoset or video. Once that distinction is properly made, and recognised legally via copyright, then many of the negative aspects of porn production would evaporate.”

Well, there certainly is a legal distinction between a person and an inanimate prop, which is why there’s a such thing as a model release. But more generally, I think the proposal you make shows very little understanding of how intellectual property actually works in media. The closest non-sex industry analogies for porn performing are 1) screen acting, and 2) photo modeling. In neither case is a performer or model considered as having creative control or long-term ownership of the resulting film or images simply by virtue of being a performer or model. Nor does the “cinema verite” nature of Abby Winters productions change that, since documentary film makers are still considered the intellectual property holders of their films, not the subjects.

I’ll put forward a simple question – do you think the participants in the Kids on Fire Summer Camp that was the subject of the documentary Jesus Camp should have the legal right to demand changes to or block the release of that film, simply by virtue of being subjects of that film? (And hence, could be said to have played a critical creative role.) You should give that some thought, because that’s where your concept of intellectual property is going.

And in any event, if those are the kind of changes you want to intellectual property law, I’d suggest that you have a hell of a lot bigger fish to fry than the porn industry.

Now as for your specific proposal, that the models should be getting royalties or residuals, I actually am a big supporter of that idea, and its something I’ve written about before. But I think the question of how this is to be achieved is where you’re off base. You propose “legislation” and I’m not terribly convinced this approach will work. I seriously doubt that MPs are going to back a bill to legislate royalty payments in porn when 1) they haven’t even bothered to fully legalize the industry to begin with (and in fact have been trying to regulate internet access in such a way as to actively censor it), 2) no such legislation exists for other creative industries, and 3) they’re under a lot of pressure from both the political right and certain segments of the “left” not to normalize the sex industry.

Again, you need look at the norms of the lager media – there is no law that says you have to pay somebody royalties for creative work. One can offer a lump sum payment or whatever else the worker is willing to negotiate, and that’s pretty much the situation in the porn industry. The reason that, in regular film and music at least, royalties are the norm is through the collective bargaining of groups like Actors Equity, APRA, the Writers Guild, etc.

These groups, of course, have the strength and legal recognition to be able to collectively bargain for their members, and if Australian porn performers were to attempt something like this, I’d certainly be all for it. However, I will point out that in the US, attempts to unionize the porn industry have failed, not through the union-busting efforts of “porn lords”, but through simple lack of interest on the part of the performers, most of whom are in the industry on a very temporary basis and don’t see themselves as having the kind of long-term stake in porn performing that is necessary to create a union. And the established performers union, the Screen Actor’s Guild, keeps their doors sealed shut to anybody working in the porn industry. Whether established Australian unions are more progressive is an open question.

But again, call me skeptical that there really is a big problem in general here. Other than the list of specific ideas just listed by Meredith, mostly, I see some very vague charges of exploitation of young women (and that’s kind of standard knee-jerk charge against porn in general, really, regardless of the specifics of the situation), melodramatics about G Media “raping” Melbourne, and a various complaints that images can’t be “taken back” by performers who later came to regret their participation. (It should be obvious that once you’ve released images, they’re in the world and are going to probably be out there in some form forever.) This is countered by a seemingly greater number of performers who say their very happy with what they’ve done and how they’ve been treated (though they seem to be dismissed by the other side as “paid agents”). I’m also aware that there’s a lot of bad blood between G Media, Feck, and various ex-staff members of these companies, and a few ex-models, most notably Liandra Dahl. That’s not unprecedented, and I’ve seen plenty of similar dramas play out in the US porn industry, and it mostly has to do with personality conflicts than anything really to do with ethics.

Hence, I still have doubts that Garion Hall is the diabolical porn lord he’s made out to be, especially since I don’t see anybody other than Liandra Dahl (and perhaps Meredith, at least if this is AW model Meredith here) willing to actually put their name and reputation to complaints against Hall and G Media (or Feck, for that matter). Most of the complaints I’ve seen come from anonymous thread-stalkers, like those who have popped up here. Is there even an “ex-Abby Winters” web page along the lines of the various “ex-Suicide Girls” pages that sprang up after that controversy? Is anybody other than Liandra Dahl willing to stand up and make specific criticisms by name? So far, there seems to be little “there” there.

By Iamcuriousblue on Jul 2, 2009

Iamcuriousblue, glad to read that you would like to see some form of residual payments for the participants, and I agree on the difficulties of unionisation, due to the transient involvement of many of the participants.

I have no problem with the notion of people being free to enter into any contractual arrangement they wish, provided it doesn’t break any law. Hopefully, the decision to enter into a contract would be an informed one, and obviously it’s unhealthy if the other party to the contract is the informant.

I’m not a lawyer so may well misunderstand the current legal position of some of what’s involved, as well as some of what you’re meaning. I view it from the perspective of a layman, and in the context of Edmund Burke’s observation that “It’s not what a lawyer tells me I may do, but what reason, humanity and justice tell me I ought to do.”, in the same vein as the example of deportees to penal colonies. Who knows how iniquitous some aspects of copyright and associated law may be viewed two hundred years from now.

Broadly speaking, my part understanding/ part view is that the models could justifiably be regarded as giving a performance, although not necessarily as defined by the Australian Copyright Act. http://www.artslaw.com.au/legalinformation/PerformersRights.asp

As such, they would have Performers’ Rights, such as the right to authorize the recording of the performance, and those doing the recording acquire the right to make copies. Beyond that, in the absence of any contractual agreement, the model is then excluded from the benefits of exploiting the financial possibilities in making of copies of the performance, and that imbalance is still currently the case across the wider spectrum of performance. http://www.musiclawupdates.com/articles/ARTICLE%2005PerformersRights.htm (Incidentally, how do you make links clickable on here.?)

Perhaps, therefore, what’s required is to find a sympathetic media lawyer with an interest in porn, and there must be quite of few of those about, to draw up a contract that stipulates the models’ right to receive residual payments, especially when her image is used off-site. Display it widely on blogs like your own and elsewhere, and get willing ex models, and others in Melbourne, to attach it to the model adverts that abbywinters uses, so that if they go for an interview they can take a copy with them.

By GJD on Jul 4, 2009

Meredith, can i ask how many sets you did and have you ever requested them to be removed?

By Luke on Jul 5, 2009

The legend says that Henry Ford kept the union out of the Ford Motor Company by merely keeping one-step ahead of the unions in the way he rewarded his employees. His people received better benefits and a larger wage than any other autoworkers. In addition, since they didn’t have to pay union dues, that better pay was doubled.

If I tried to return to the labor practices Henry Ford practiced when he was such a shining example of progressive labor policies, even the most cold-hearted and ruthless anti-union employers of today would accuse me of being criminal.

A lot of the above comments depends on the point of view of the writer. In the adult industry, Mr. Hall appears to be a true progressive. In comparison to other – more acceptable – industries, he may be a throwback. In order for that to change, the adult industry needs to gain respectability – first.

When my father was a young man, acting was considered the occupation of bums and ner-do-wells and actors were treated worse than common laborers are today. Now there is a union that protects them from the studio heads. In my younger days, musicians were working hard to gain ownership of their music, recorded as well as written. Today, if I want to sing Happy Birthday as a part of commercial project, I have to pay royalties. Will the same happen for models? Even if it does, will it happen for models in the adult portions of that industry? Only time will tell.

On the issue of royalties, or residuals, let me point out this. The stars get royalties. They worked hard for them and now it is their right. However, the extras don’t. The extras include the studio musicians in the recording industry, the bit, and many character actors in both movies and television, and so on and so on. In fact, a former friend of mine who created something for Microsoft and even had his name applied to the patent, died penniless because it became the intellectual property of Microsoft just because that company wrote his paycheck when he created it. Bill Gates is the star of Microsoft, not my dead friend Jeffer.

The only way things will ever be equitable across the board is if greed can be removed as a motive. But, without greed, would there be industry?

By Inar Merton on Jul 10, 2009

Man, I can’t understand why simple concepts of freedom of speech don’t catch on in other countries. I mean, it does produce some jerks but really, it’s just fundamental to fairness. As an American adult consumer, I enjoy Abby Winters because it doesn’t have the plastic women seen in American porn. It’s clear just from the footage that these are women enjoying their work. I suppose I can’t tell about the background folks (web, camera, billing, staff) but I hope that they are treated as well. I think the most prudent thing to do, if there is a concern for the workers, is that law should protect the rights of those that work in adult industries. Trying to make laws against the adult industry itself is extremely dangerous, since it will go underground and have no control or moral. It’s simple logic, but perhaps at the end of the day there isn’t any concern for the adult model and that is the objective of keeping the archaic laws.

By Nivrac on Oct 10, 2009

Ah the strangeness of Garion Hall.

Abigail “Abby” Winters is just a pseudonym. Pure and simple.

Doubt me? “Garion” is actually a name he grabbed from a David Eddings novel.

His real name starts with “A”.

By Carb on Nov 15, 2009

Writing from Austria, I have to say that this site really is spending hope. Australia should be proud of it, and its owner honored – not jailed. It’s arousing and making confident at the same time. A democratic experience.
The above criticism I consider to be very miserable. And unfortunate – especially thinking about the whole lot of other, real disgusting pornography out there.
I’ve been a member every year since 2006, twice in 2009.
I guess I would not have met my first girlfriend if I wasn’t, because of my disability I wouldn’t dare to touch a female body. Yet sites like Abby Winters made me think otherwise.
Sure, Abby Winters may be a true fantasy. Garion Hall may be Abby. And guess what? I thank him for that! It’s even just underlining what I think about this site. In this regard, about that what it provides.
Therefore, Abby Winters means nothing less than education for me. Pure education.
Presenting the world of female anatomy.
It’s also really one of a kind in the whole world. There is nothing even coming close to it. No other site. Yet there are other unique Australian sites, like beautifulagony, which doesn’t even feature nudity and therefore hardly would be considered “pornography” in my country. Thanks to Abby Winters and sites like beautifulagony, Australian erotica could have even established some sort of brand. A very positive brand in my opinion. Sure it’s not that “hardcore”, and sites like kink.com in the US have similiar ethical standards – yet those sites are very “hardcore” and even unconsumable for people without some BDSM tastes. So Abby Winters is the deal, especially if you’re a heterosexual man, don’t want to see other males in front of a camera, and aren’t into BDSM.

By Juergen Mayer on Nov 19, 2009

This is what you get when you take a once cool site and turn it into a faceless, spamy juggernaut that markets the same content under many different names…. oldest trick in the simpleton training manual.

You can expect the Garion Hall stooges to be all over this post with their butt-kissing sycophantic dribble. 10 million dollars buys a lot of positive opinions.

By Reason A Bubble on Nov 20, 2009

Although I like the content of this site, in principle I do not like companies who market lies. This site makes itself out to be some kind of shangri-la of female empowerment, and upon further scrutiny it does not hold up to this claim.

While I understand that is business, and this angle has assisted the company to be profitable, I do not support blatant bullshit and therefore would not purchase it’s content.

Bottom line: Each to their own, many people will and do.

By tony on Dec 13, 2009

The bare thruth is as follows.

AW, like all pornographes is an goldigging internet pimp that turns young women into whores for pocket money so that men all over can masturbate masturbate on-line. for e few dollars.

And these girls will be for sale och exposeed free on the internet, and for ever.

They are not made into models, as they think. They are scammed and turned into whores, who have sex for money, for all athe world to see, FOREVER.

I would say that AW and all pornographers are ruthless, scammers who make millions of dollars, exploiting young girls to supply maturbationg material to a growing number oif porn additct.

Pretty Nasty !!

By Mike on Dec 19, 2009